February 12, 2013
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"Will it not, in the end, destroy brotherly love..." ~ Whitefield | welcome one another
This is a follow-up to my last post, a Calvinist, a Wesley bobblehead, the holy catholic Church & the communion of saints. (I'd actually begun writing this post almost a year ago, put it aside at the time, but now I've pulled it out again...)
Some of you may be aware of George Whitefield's differences with John Wesley, Whitefield being a Calvinist, and Wesley an Arminian.
A while back, as I was reading Arnold Dallimore's biography of George Whitefield, I ran across a letter written by George Whitefield in response to John Wesley.¹ Whitefield's sentiment in that letter is a demonstration of the quality of fellowship God wants us to have with Christians who differ from us, and his words here set the tone all of us as Christians should seek to aspire to.Prior to presenting the letter itself, Dallimore brings us a little background:
Among the letters brought to Whitefield by his brother there was one from John Wesley.¹ It is to be regretted that this letter has not been preserved, but from Whitefield's reply it is evident that Wesley introduced the matters on which they differed and sought to provoke him into dispute. Whitefield answered:
Savannah, March 26, 1740
HONOURED SIR,—
Since I returned here, I received your letter and journal –– I thank you for both, and shall wait almost with impatience to see a continuance of your account of what God is doing or has done amongst you –– He knows my heart, I rejoice in whatever God has done by your hands. I prae, sequare, etsi, no passibus equis. ["Go before, I follow, though with unequal steps."]
I could now send a particular answer to your last; but, my honoured friend and brother, for once hearken to a child, who is willing to wash your feet. I beseech you by the mercies of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, if you would have my love confirmed towards you, write no more to me about misrepresentations wherein we differ. To the best of my knowledge, at present, no sin has dominion over me; yet I feel the stragglings of indwelling sin day by day. I can, therefore, by no means, come into your interpretation of the passage mentioned in your letter, and as explained in your preface to Mr. Halyburton. The doctrine of election, and the final perseverance of those that are truly in Christ, I am ten thousand times more convinced of, if possible, than when I saw you last. You think otherwise: why then should we dispute, when there is no probability of convincing? Will it not, in the end, destroy brotherly love, and insensibly take from us that cordial union and sweetness of soul, which I pray God may always subsist between us? How glad would the enemies of the Lord be to see us divided? How many would rejoice, should I join and make a party against you? How would the cause of our common Master suffer by our raising disputes about particular points of doctrines?
Honoured Sir, let us offer salvation freely to all by the blood of Jesus; and whatever light God has communicated to us, let us freely communicate to others. I have lately read the life of Luther, and think it in no wise to his honour, that the last part of his life was so much taken up in disputing with Zuinglius and others; who, in all probability, equally loved the Lord Jesus, notwithstanding they might differ from him in other points. Let this, dear Sir, be a caution to us. I hope it will to me; for by the blessing of God, provoke me to it as much as you please, I do not think ever to enter the lists of controversy with you on the points wherein we differ. Only, I pray to God, that the more you judge me, the more I may love you, and learn to desire no one's approbation, but that of my Lord and Master, Jesus Christ."
Ere this reaches you, I suppose you will hear of my late excursion to Charles Town. A great work I believe is begun there. Enclosed I have sent you Mr Garden's letters –– They will serve to convince you more and more, of the necessity you lie under to be instant in season and out of season.
Oh, dear honoured Sir, I wish you as much success as your own heart can wish. Was you here I would weep over you with tears of love, and tell you what great things God has done for my soul, since we parted last. Indeed and indeed, I often and heartily pray for your success in the Gospel: May your inward strength and outward sphere increase day by day! May God use you as a choice and singular instrument of promoting His glory on earth, and may I see you crowned with an eternal and exceeding weight of glory in the world to come! this is the hearty desire of, honoured Sir,
Yours most affectionately in Christ Jesus,
G.W.* * *I will say that I consider myself a Calvinist, and that I love Calvinism and the doctrines of grace / TULIP (total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace & perseverance of the saints). I know the name of John Calvin and the term Calvinism conjure up a lot of negative, misguided, flawed, and faulty connotations (understatement!), so for a brief summary of Calvinism / the doctrines of grace / TULIP, I'd encourage you to read this article.)
Over the past several years, I've been brought to the same deep and abiding conviction which Charles Spurgeon also held:
"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."
~ from Spurgeon's "A Defense of Calvinism"
I want to make it clear that I very well know that souls can be saved and not hold to the tenets of Calvinism. I know this because for years, I was saved, but I wasn't a Calvinist! (In my post, "True Calvinism is not," I wrote about how I balked at and rejected many of the doctrines of grace for years. I'd encourage you to read that account here.)However, don't get me wrong... I'm not at all squishy or soft when it comes to doctrine. Along with Whitefield, I'd say I am ten thousand times more convinced of Calvinistic doctrine than I was at this time year. I believe it is critical and vital that the doctrines of grace are preached and taught. And I strongly and urgently assert that one reason why the Church is in such a sad, sorry, and ruined state right now is because those doctrines have not been preached and taught as they ought to have been –– since those doctrines provide the true kindling for the fire of personal and corporate reformation, renewal, and revival –- which results in an overflowing love and zeal for God, God's glory, God's Word, God's Gospel, and God's mission –– exactly what happened on the Day of Pentecost. O! We are in desperate need of the heavens being rent again and the Holy Dove to descend with His baptizing fire!
WELCOME ONE ANOTHER FOR THE GLORY OF GOD
However, all that said, I am compelled by the Spirit of Christ to welcome ALL the saints (both Arminians and Calvinists) whom Christ Himself has welcomed, for Christ's sake and for the sake of the Gospel, for the glory of God. (Makes for an interesting tension in my soul, to say the least!)
In Romans 15, Paul reminds us of our holy obligation to welcome one another:
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.
THE POWER TO WELCOME ONE ANOTHER
In those verses, Paul is praying for God to endow the Roman Christians with His power so they might welcome one another because it's wholly impossible for any of us to do that apart from the power of God working in us! Plus, he's praying these things for Romans because he knows they will struggle mightily with temptations not to welcome one another and to destroy brotherly love, as Whitefield put it. Isn't it wonderful that in Jesus Christ we have a merciful and faithful high priest who was tempted as we are, who knows our weaknesses, and having been tempted as we are, and yet without sin, He has pity upon us and is ready and able to supply sufficient grace from His riches in glory as we call upon Him? (see Hebrews 2:16-18, 4:14-16)
Paul's prayer has been preserved as part of the canon of Holy Scripture because the Holy Spirit wanted to remind believers throughout the ages (including us here in the 21st century) that we will all struggle and we will all be tempted like the believers in Rome in the first century. These things were written for our example. These prayers were prayed for our example. But thanks be to God, with every commandment God gives, God gives His people the power to fulfill that commandment: the Christ who welcomed us will empower us to welcome one another, for the glory of God. We desperately need to go boldly to the throne of grace and ask the God of endurance and encouragement to pour out grace upon us so we might welcome one another. And notice there, that when we welcome one another as Christ welcomed us, we do so for the glory of God. What does it say about our attitude toward the glory of God when we are not seeking to welcoming one another as Christ welcomed us?
THE PICTURE PORTRAYED AS WE WELCOME ONE ANOTHER
A few verses later in Romans 15, Paul launches off into a seemingly different trajectory: a spectacular world-wide missionary vision and call, in which he cites verses from Isaiah, written hundreds of years prior. What's with that? How does Paul get there from the first verses in the chapter? My brothers and sisters, our welcoming one another in the local church is a picture of God's welcoming us into His global family. And our welcoming one another in the local church is a small picture of what God has been and is continuing to do throughout the entire world for thousands of years. As the Gospel is preached to all the nations (people groups) to all the ends of the earth, are we not welcoming those whom Christ has redeemed to God by His blood from out of every tribe, and language, and people, and nation. And if we aren't welcoming one another in the local church (or in cyberspace, or wherever ...), how hypocritical of us is it for us to claim we're burdened for the lost? Convicting? Yes, for myself also. Greatly convicting.
Jesus Christ died to make us all one new man that we all might glorify God for his mercy.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ...
"For the sake of His name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ..." If you belong to Christ, you belong to Him for the sake of His name. If you have been welcomed by Jesus Christ, you have been welcomed for the sake of His name. Your salvation and my salvation through the Gospel of Jesus Christ is God's means for His name to be lifted up and praised among all the nations. Peter reminds us that we're a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light (I Peter 2:9).
When we stop and linger over and meditate upon and don't skip over those first portions of the Lord's prayer, "Our Father... hallowed be Your Name, Your Kingdom come," when we keep our eyes fixed on Jesus Christ and His purposes for the world, as we keep the glory of God and the furtherance of the Gospel in plain view, we will keep a right perspective and be eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit (see Ephesians 4:1-6), and strive to do whatever we can to avoid destroying brotherly love –– much as Paul wrote in Romans 12: If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. And you can look high and low, but I don't see any loopholes there: all means all.
MADE WILLING IN THE DAY OF HIS POWER
There are many, many Christians with whom I differ, but as God's grace works in me, I long to welcome them as Christ welcomed me, and I wish to support and encourage all those who belong to Christ and are preaching the Gospel, seeking to lift up Christ and Him crucified, guarding the Gospel and holding to the authority and the truth of the Scripture, and seeking the glory and praise of God in all things.
As much as I have every fleshly reason to despise and reject those who differ from me (particularly those who have slandered and maligned both Calvinism and Calvinists), God Himself won't let me do so because His Spirit convicts me and His love comes to constrain and fill me. The God of endurance and encouragement has given and continues to give me Christ's supernatural, longsuffering love for those saints and their ministries: a love for Christ and His Church that goes above and beyond my beloved Calvinism, so I might welcome them as Christ has welcomed me: to love them as Christ has loved me, and to forgive them as Christ has forgiven me.
And the problem is this
We were bought with a kiss
But the cheek still turned
Even when it wasn't hitAnd I don't know what to do with a love like that
And I don't know how to be a love like that
~ from David Crowder Band's "Surely We Can Change"I have to pinch myself at those times I have found my heart drawn out in love, even toward those who have insulted me for my Calvinistic beliefs, and how I find found myself praying for God's blessings to fall afresh on those saints. At that I can only marvel, for that is God's doing, for it is the Lord alone who makes me willing in the day of His power (Psalm 110:3, KJV), so I might welcome all the saints as Christ has welcomed me, delight in all the saints as Christ delights in me, and intercede for all the saints as Christ intercedes for me.
THAT WE MIGHT NOT DESTROY BROTHERLY LOVE
The devil loves division, and he is constantly prowling and seeking to get a foothold to divide us one from another. I'm not saying we shouldn't ever discuss these matters of doctrine for, as I said above, I consider these matters vital –– but there may come certain points in time when we may need to refrain and restrain ourselves like George Whitefield, so that we might not destroy brotherly love. May God give each one of us His Spirit of truth and wisdom tempered with His Spirit of love, humility, patience, and gentleness, always entrusting all the saints to God's keeping ~ II Timothy 2:14-26; Acts 20:32. As we remain watchful and stand firm in the faith, may all we do, may all I do, be done with love ~ I Corinthians 16:13-14... "knowledge puffs up, but love builds up" ~ I Corinthians 8:1.
May we have the mind of Christ dwelling within us, that our manner of life would be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so we might stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together, striving side by side, for the faith of the gospel (Philippians 1:27), for the glory of God and the praise and renown of God's name in all the nations, until the knowledge of the glory of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the seas!
~ Karen, S.D.G.
¹ Arnold A. Dallimore, "George Whitefield: The Life and Times of the Great Evangelist of the Eighteenth-Century Revival - Volume I" (Banner of Truth Trust: Edinburgh / Carlisle, PA, 1970, reprinted 2009), 450-452. Dallimore added in the paragraphing to Whitefield's letter, which was originally found in Gilles' "Works," pp. 155-157.* For more on Calvinism / TULIP / the doctrines of grace, please listen to the Rev. Geoff Thomas' series of sermons on The Five Points of Calvinism at http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=alfredplace&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=The+Five+Points+of+Calvinism.
Related:
true Calvinism is not
I can't keep walking on eggshells here (more on Revelife, Calvinism, the Body of Christ and self)
Lent IV.-"If you love Me you will love the church"
May the mind and word of Christ dwell in us so we might arise as one man
we are a wilderness and a desolation today (lack of love in the Church | Isaiah 64:10-11)
forgive us for dividing Your Son, our Lord
Behold, how good and pleasant it is when we dwell in unity!
ALL God's people singing, "He reigns" (Letter 28 on assurance & joy)
How can we say we are unified when ... ?
What kind of pony are you asking for for Christmas?
Does oneness in Christ mean . . . ?
Is Satan stirring the pot in your congregation? (and are you helping him?)
an "ici" good-bye | a lesson in warm catholicity
The Gospel and the Lord's table
Happy 500th Birthday John Calvin (some thoughts from John Wesley)
Do you love the saints . . . ALL the saints? (reflections on church hurts)
a Calvinist, a Wesley bobblehead, the holy catholic Church & the communion of saints
Why I write and minister - My credo for being a godly encourager
Profitable Preaching ~ Kenneth Stewart: "And your soul will be a damp squib..." ~ see the 1st portion on doctrineScripture quotations unless otherwise indicated are taken from The Holy Bible, English Standard Version. Copyright ©2001 by Crossway Bibles, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission.
Photo credits (all {{PD-Art|PD-old-100}}):
Work found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Wesley_by_George_Romney_1789.jpg
Work found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:George_Whitefield_(head).jpg
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Comments (18)
Good Afternoon, Karen
I first met my Calvinist in Grand Rapids, Michigan over 25 years ago due to one of my 20 moves in 40 years due to my employment. We were in a mall that had a counseling ministry to anyone--Christian. Many students from Calvin college came in and saw my Scofield Bible. lol They gave me a hard time, so I got a plain Bible for there. No Bible is worth fighting over. lol Then they were OK. They were nice. The professors at Calvin College then at least, complained that the student were not strong evangelistically. There view was since God had already chosen the redeemed, they did not not have to worry about it. I do not know what Calvin College did to correct this, as Calvinist believe in evangelism.
There was also a Baptist Bible College near by.. lol I heard the student of both debate their differences a lot. I am not too bright, don't like deep stuff and just listened. It always sounded as a toss up. lol
I subscribe to a newspaper called The Sword of The Lord. It is Fundamental Baptist. lol I read some of their articles. They do not agree with calvin or the other guy. lol Armenian? I found the funny, but at heart i am a Fundamental Baptist--I just do not like their preaching style.
I find that most church people get along fine. I am not worried about it, but I am sure that you have been criticized very disrespectfully. I am sorry that happened to you.
I would visit more, but I am not kidding when I say I am not a deep thinker, reader, or student. Sorry.
Wishing you a blessed Lent,
frank
All for the glory of God!
Let this be our driving force and our constant goal! The Kingdom of God is here and we are His loving children. Satan has been defeated and there is no reason to give him any leeway at all. Our conversation is in heaven where Christ is, so let us keep our words as well as actions from aiding and abetting the defeated foe.
I am so glad to see this post. How did you know beforehand that you would be led to this point? The doctrines of grace should be a great incentive for us to love those whose theology differs from ours and yet is centered on Christ.
I think causing division and confusion is one of the enemy's biggest and most used weapons. We must always be striving to make all we do for His glory and honor.
Well Karen, here we are again... These,last few years have been interesting as I moved from a large church that changed Pastors and thereby resulted in a drastic change in preaching and suttle changes in doctrine to the congregation, to a church body attempting to adjust to the changes taking place within its larger denomination that they did not believe we're Biblical. They disconnected themselves from that denomination and here I am in a loving, grace filled Calvinist congregation.
I am still filled with awe at the Prophetic events taking place currently, and will talk with these prophecy starved fellow Christians of mine in this congregation anytime, anywhere.
You are close to my heart, as I sense God has given you an urging to write these posts, (you must!) and I read them all. Although time is very short now, as events are happening at a faster pace than ever before!
But that is exactly what God told us to expect with birth pangs...
Personally, I do not find the creator of all things solidly in one camp or another and our understanding of God is limited to a finite mind and heart, whether we read Psalms, Ecclesiastes, New Testament or Old Testament. God's ways are NOT our ways and His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. I find that to view our Father as a full blown Calvinist or a full on Arminian is not giving full credit to God, the father of us all.
I find holding 2 truths that TEND to be opposing (in tension) not belittling to God but more an expression to His Glory and Honor. God is sovereign and ALL things are firmly under His control and yet, His love for all human-kind extends beyond limited atonement allowing man the desire of his heart, whether heaven or hell. To me, there is nothing illiterate, unknowledgeable, pathetic, or glorious about holding on to 2 tensions at the same time. Both camps have something to offer to an understanding of God's front side AND His backside. Forgive me for saying this but "I am just one of the weak things that God uses to shame the wise, one of the foolish things of humankind".
Folks, it is not a matter of Calvin is right or Arminius is right. IF that is the attitude, then BOTH are wrong in my estimation. Paul argued that in ! Corinthians 1:10-31 unless one considers Paul's argument in error. By saying this, I am also not a Rodney King saying "Can't we all just get along?" Is it to much to ask to allow God to be God? Dan
WOW, dear friend Karen. I made it through an eloquent discourse with perhaps a moment to say thank you. If my computer doesn't freeze in the meantime, I will be delighted.
Thanks for sharing wisdom.
Sincerely,
Hunt
P.S. what is S.D.G?
@eshunt@revelife -
SDG<td>Soli Deo Gloria (Latin: To God Alone the Glory)
@Biblerapture - thank you
@HUMOR_ME_NOW - I find myself with that "interesting tension," as I put it in the blog, and I think when I don't have that, then I'll be in trouble. I've found that over the past few years, as my doctrine has become more narrow, my love for all the saints has expanded (if that makes any sense at all
).
@quest4god@revelife - "All for the glory of God!" - Yes! When we keep Christ and God's glory central, and submit ourselves to Him, though things may become challenging at times, all the rest will fall into place in the long term.
@stephensmustang - Though we can't go against conscience, we should always be seeking to honor God and to do all things in love. Even as we do that, there divisions may arise due to our convictions, but we shouldn't be intentionally seeking to sow seeds of division or confusion. As I mentioned to Frank above, I need to continue to experience that "interesting tension" at all times.
@Biblerapture - Jim, your comment really refreshed me! Thank you so much your continuing encouragements! (Re: prophecy... I'd encourage you to get hold of Iain Murray's "The Puritan Hope." Definitely a different perspective than yours. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.)
I Timothy 6:11-12.~ Karen
@danPs73 - Unregenerate man's desire is NEVER for God, NEVER for heaven. Apart from the Spirit of God blowing upon us and breathing life into us, we will remain spiritually dead, with our wills bound, being slaves to sin, dead in trespasses and sin, children of disobedience, separated from God, and enemies of God. In and of ourselves, we have no power to desire God and no power to move toward Him in any way. The minds of unbelievers are blinded; they are unable to see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Jesus said unless we are born again, we can't even see the Kingdom of God. How can we desire something we can't see? In Romans 3, we read no one seeks God, and in Romans 8, that the carnal mind is enmity against God, and it will not and cannot submit to God. If God didn't graciously intervene to save some, every single one of us would be lost if left to our own devices.
@eshunt@revelife - You're welcome, Hunt. May God's Spirit lead all of us into all truth... John 16:13, II Tim. 2:15.
And Jim (@Biblerapture) already answered your question about S.D.G. Here's a little more about that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soli_Deo_gloria.
@naphtali_deer - I firmly believe that Jesus Christ paid the price for all sin and all humans. Most however, will not realize that and therefore fail to bow the knee to Him. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, it is true and it is true that only by the name of Jesus Christ we must be saved but you are failing to realize that both sides (Calvinism AND Arminianism) have equal numbers of scripture to support them.
I believe God allows for both to exist simultaneously. I,too, believe salvation only comes by grace and that through Jesus Christ but Calvinism is not the only understanding of the Sovereignty of God, it is an understanding, but there are other views of God that offer God's sovereignty with equal scriptural foundation. Calvinism is not the only way and Arminianism is not the only way. Because we differ on some doctrine has nothing to do with our salvation. I have asked Jesus Christ into my heart as you have and I will buy the "T" and the "P" but not "u", "L", or "I" just as I won't buy "all men receive salvation" from Arminius. There are better understandings in the Word. But in reality, you are my sister though we see a little differently. Dan
@naphtali_deer - I don't want to get into any great hairy debate but there is one passage in particular that stops the limited atonement by Jesus Christ and it is this;
John 12:31-33New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”
33
He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
The Greek for all is "pas" and as a definition according to Vines, all means precisely all, whosoever, any, every (3956 in Strongs). If all means all manner of men then Jesus Christ draws all as the verse states. I can't explain the grace that God has offered all men but Jesus Christ Himself has drawn all men to Him as a result. If He only drew some men (those chosen men as Calvin's Sovereignty indicates), then Jesus Christ is a liar. There are many other verses on either side but it only takes one in context to stand against 5 point Calvinism. The foundation of Calvinism is built on "some men" receiving full grace and most left without hope. As you may see, that is not the case here.
I am concerned about the Church leaning to the "liberal Arminianism" and the "extreme Calvinism" because Jesus Christ is worth far more than the extremes. A great study is a study of Cain from Gen 4 (particularly verse 7). God didn't blow Cain off as one of the non elect but gave him every opportunity to come to Him. Why would the Father have made the effort if He knew Cain was not one of the chosen? Dan
@danPs73 - Dan, thanks for your comments. I so agree with what you wrote here: "Because we differ on some doctrine has nothing to do with our salvation." That's just as I wrote in the original post... I know we can be saved apart from agreement on certain doctrines.
In your first comment above, you wrote, "I firmly believe that Jesus Christ paid the price for all sin and all humans." If that's really the case, if Jesus already paid the price for all sin and for all humans, then how can it be just for God to pour out His wrath upon unbelievers and allow them to suffer everlasting punishment? Wouldn't that be unjustly punishing them for sin that Jesus was already punished for?
In your second comment above, you quoted John 12:32: But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
That can't possibly mean ALL men, as in the totality of mankind, since It's clear that all men don't end up coming to faith in Jesus. We're both in agreement that not all men are saved.
However, Jesus did tell us that ALL men who are drawn to Jesus WILL be saved:
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Even though not all men are saved, the gospel invitation is still to be taken to all men. (FYI: the great missionary movement of the late 18th c.- early 19th. c. began with Calvinists, such as William Carey & Andrew Fuller & Adoniram Judson; plus, Calvin himself supported evangelism and missionary endeavors - see this article: http://www.founders.org/journal/fj33/article2.html.)
I'm no Greek scholar, but the word "men" is not actually in the Greek text of John 12:32.
Therefore, one way to consider the "ALL' in John 12:31 could be ALL the nations (as opposed to only the Jewish nation) -- meaning that men from all people groups will come to Jesus (e.g. - Rev. 5:9).
The "ALL" in John 12:31 is definitely talking about ALL Jesus' sheep. (HT: see John Piper's sermon - http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/for-this-purpose-i-have-come-to-this-hour.)
John 10:26 "but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."
Jesus said He laid down His life for His sheep, and Jesus made it clear that some people WERE NOT His sheep while others WERE. ALL those whom Jesus is going to save WILL come to Him, they will ALL hear His voice, and ALL those who come to Him because they will ALL be drawn by the Father. On the other hand, those who are not His sheep will not hear His voice. Those who are not His sheep will not be drawn to Him.
We only come to Jesus because we are ALREADY part of Jesus' flock (e.g. - "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..." - Eph. 1:4-5). We don't BECOME Jesus' sheep BECAUSE we believe. We believe BECAUSE we are ALREADY Jesus' sheep, i.e. - because God ALREADY chose us in the first place, and because we are ALREADY Jesus' sheep, and because we have ALREADY been given to Jesus by the Father:
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me WILL come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out...
Acts 13:48b ... and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
God is God, and as much as it may not "seem" fair or right to us that He elects some to be saved and that He does not grant equal grace to all men, it is God alone who has the right to choose to whom He will impart grace and to whom He won't. God's free sovereign grace manifests His power and His glory ~ Romans 9:15: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (see the whole context).
I know we may still agree to disagree in spite of what I've written here, but I pray you might further examine these doctrines.
Yours in Christ's love,
Karen
@naphtali_deer - Karen said;
In your first comment above, you wrote, "I
firmly believe that Jesus Christ paid the price for all sin and all
humans." If that's really the case, if Jesus already paid the price for
all sin and for all humans, then how can it be just for God to pour out
His wrath upon unbelievers and allow them to suffer everlasting
punishment? Wouldn't that be unjustly punishing them for sin that Jesus
was already punished for?
Karen, I am suggesting that fair and unfair is not what we are talking about here. God is always fair!! God is just in all His ways. It seems it is only the Calvinists that use that as an arrow. I did more research and the more I study Calvinism, the more I find it misrepresents what the bible does say. God is not a dictator. He does not say, "this is the way it is, like it or lump it". He is compassionate toward all His creation. You are correct in saying that He has every right to create however He chooses, but what we are disagreeing about is WHEN the implementation of His election kicks in. You are saying it was before the creation, I am saying it is at Christ's second coming, when Jesus Christ takes charge, beginning with the millennial kingdom. That makes a great deal of difference. There would be no point to a second death (Revelation 20) if God's Sovereign Will is performed as Calvin claims. Why would anyone judge AFTER being condemned.
God foreknew but didn't allow His foreknowledge to prevent Him from displaying His love for His creation until man has looked through the corridors of time in his individual life and mankind's collective life at the resurrection and see they were given every opportunity throughout time to repent, and did not. That displays God's Sovereign Will more accurately to me than any of Calvin's doctrine. After studying Calvinism more, I even am backing away from the "T" and the "P" after finding the full implications of Calvin's total depravity and perseverance of the saints. They lend well into the dictator mentality of Supreme Being dictating his Sovereign Will. That is absolutely not the Godhead that I read about.
It is true He is Sovereign and His will is done on earth as it is in heaven. His plan has unfolded over time according to His will and not because of His will. That has to do with timing. It shows that regardless of how satan over time has tried to deceive and subvert God's plan, God's plan still unfolds His way.
"Therefore, one way to consider the "ALL' in
John 12:31 could be ALL the nations (as opposed to only the Jewish
nation) -- meaning that men from all people groups will come to Jesus
(e.g. - Rev. 5:9)."
I used John 12:31-33 and the whole chapter of John 12 to indicate that Jesus Christ died (was lifted up) not for nations but for all mankind. The judgement of the nations is found in Revelation, not in John. Jesus Christ died for individual man not for nations. That is the context that He was talking about. His life was offered to fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant for the kingdom offered to the Jews but His death, burial, and resurrection, was an offering for mankind, not nations. That is the context I believe. The prophets have foretold which nations survive and which do not. Christ did not draw all nations to Himself, He drew individuals from nations.
"We only come to Jesus because we are ALREADY
part of Jesus' flock (e.g. - "he chose us in him before the foundation
of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he
predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the
purpose of his will..."
You and I differ not on who the election (or the elect) are but when they were elected. You say before the foundation and I say He knew who would chose Him but gave all men the opportunity before gathering His flock at translation or death, which ever comes first. That way He is able to say in Timothy and Peter, my desire is "that all men be saved........", even though He knows most will reject Him. He prepared hell for satan and his angels, not for man initially. I'm not saying that God was caught off guard but rather He delayed His Will to the last, the second death.
I find John Piper the man, bordering on the extreme of Calvinism, and though I believe he is my brother in Christ, I find his doctrine offensive and after listening to many hours of his services and programming, I personally find his statements offensive to Jesus Christ and God in my opinion. Would you use Joel Osteen, or Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts as a proof of what you believe? I doubt that they have any credibility with you or me even though they may be our brothers. This is how I perceive John Piper. We can banter back and forth about verses and context but after several years in mild Calvinistic thought and many years of research, Calvinism is distasteful to me. If I thought it was what God and Jesus Christ was saying in His Word, I would agree, but I find it is not and it falls far short of an understanding of what God is saying to me.
"I know we may still agree to disagree in spite of what I've written here, but I pray you might further examine these doctrines."
Karen, I want you to know I have no disdain for you at all. That is why I wasn't going to continue with debating Calvinism. I have been down the road of proof texts ad nauseum and all it has done is drive me away from rather than toward Calvinism. I find context is more important than proof verses and filling in the omissions. We have much to agree on and more folks to harvest than to argue over minutia, IMHO. Let's show the world how we love one another, rather than beat each other up over inconsequential doctrine for salvation, OK? Dan
@naphtali_deer - Hello Karen; I belong to a non-denominational congregation that follows the Open Brethren understanding of what God has said to us. Brethren"ism" has been split numerous times over Calvinism and even the "founder" of the "movement", John Darby, went that way but I have found through my studies that Calvinism can pose a threat to salvation IF it is followed to the extreme. I came to this conclusion before even knowing about the Brethren movement and found that to be the best fit for me. The entire subject comes down to one simple point, Does man have free will or doesn't he? There are adequate scriptures to show both but there is no reason to draw to one or the other. Here is an article written by one of the "brethren" that does a very good job, to me,separating the concerns of extremism; also who the Open Brethren are as opposed to the Exclusives and Plymouth Brethren.
http://www.brethrenonline.org/articles/EXCALVIN.HTM
Open Brethren this is to distinguish from the Plymouth Brethren or the Exclusive Brethren which are different
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-does-piper-mean-when-he-says-hes-a-seven-point-calvinist
I know that you and I have a love affair with Jesus Christ as our Savior, Lord, brother and God. I have no doubt about that whatsoever, Karen. And I believe that the doctrinal differences that we hold dear should not be a barrier to fellowship. It is only when any doctrine is taken to the extreme that the difficulty surfaces. In my former church, our guest pastor filled in about every 3-4 months and in talking with him after one service, it was a surprise to find that he was a 5-point Calvinist. We agreed on many things and related well but who did Jesus Christ die for put a chill on our relationship. John Piper is proud to be what he calls a 7-point Calvinist with the emphasis being stressed on some saved and some created for hell. To me, that is not a doctrine to be proud of but a reasonable doctrine taken to the extreme. Just my thoughts. Dan
@danPs73 - Dan, I only cited Piper b/c I wanted to give him credit for that line of thought.
Re: our discussion here - I've come to the same conclusion Whitefield did with Wesley:
"... why then should we dispute, when there is no probability of convincing? Will it not, in the end, destroy brotherly love, and insensibly take from us that cordial union and sweetness of soul, which I pray God may always subsist between us? How glad would the enemies of the Lord be to see us divided? How many would rejoice, should I join and make a party against you? How would the cause of our common Master suffer by our raising disputes about particular points of doctrines?"
II Cor. 13:14,
Karen