November 27, 2009
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I can't keep walking on eggshells here (more on Revelife, Calvinism, the Body of Christ and self)
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
Since the recent blow-up at Revelife I've been trying to sort a lot of things out...I've been quite stressed and ill at ease. Conflicted. I've felt like my insides were being ripped apart.
Stretched...and stretched...and stretched...
The thing about being a child of God is that God's stretching is all for our good, and as we submit ourselves to the will of God by the grace of God, unlike Stretch Armstrong, we don't end up the way we started...we end up far better than we started...looking a bit more like Jesus...the stretching (the discipline) is necessary and profitable...though painful...
A little background:
1. I'm a Christian who values unity in the Body of Christ.
2. I'm a Christian who has a passion to teach the Word of God.
3. I'm a Christian who is a Calvinist.
4. I'm a Christian who believes the most God-glorifying way to proclaim the Gospel and teach the Word of God is through the framework of Calvinism.(DIsclaimer: I'm not saying that Arminians are not seeking to glorify God. I believe they are.)
I don't really like the term Calvinist, but I'm going to use it here for the sake of the discussion. I love Jesus Christ, I follow Him first and foremost. It so happens I agree with many of the teachings of John Calvin. Calvin is not my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ is.
(By the way, try as you may, you can't really fit me into the standard Calvinistic/Reformed Theology box. For example, I don't believe in infant baptism, I'm not cessationist, I don't believe in Covenant theology but New Covenant theology. I have my opinions on those but I will agree to disagree on those matters; they're all nonessentials to our one faith.)
I do consider much Calvinism (or Reformed theology) Biblical doctrine, especially the Five Solas and TULIP (the five points of Calvinism: total depravity; unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace & perseverance of the saints; for more, please see here or here). Many Christians will disagree with me on some or all of the points of Calvinism. You are welcome to disagree; such disagreement does not mean we are not all part of God's family.
A few years ago I wasn't a Calvinist. For years I balked at most of Calvinism. Now I'm in the Calvinism tent, which is part of the big tent of Christianity along with all my Arminian brothers and sisters. We're all in the big tent together. We've all been adopted into the same family, God's family, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. We're all to welcome one another to God's glory. When we don't welcome one another, we're not welcoming the Spirit of Jesus...
I confess to you that I've felt like I've been walking on eggshells recently. And I've felt like skipping out of this place...
To explain further, I'll add on a couple more points to the four I already gave:
1. I'm a Christian who values unity in the Body of Christ.
2. I'm a Christian who has a passion to teach the Word of God.
3. I'm a Christian who is a Calvinist.
4. I'm a Christian who believes the most God-glorifying way to proclaim the Gospel and teach the Word of God is through the framework of Calvinism.
5. Not all Christians are Calvinist.So, you see where that is going...
6. Not all Christians will like or agree with how I teach the Word of God.
I will tell you that it grieved me to see some of the responses to my three recent posts on Revelife (two taken down, originally posted on my own blog here and here, and one still up here), particularly the tone of some of my brothers and sisters in Christ. At first I blamed myself for causing the disunity. So I asked Revelife to take the posts down (which they eventually did). Some people pointed out to me that I didn't cause the disunity, but I only served to reveal it. The disunity was already there. (Such disunity in the Church has been there for much longer than any of us have been alive...) In retrospect I can see I overreacted because I was so distressed by the disunity and infighting I saw (plus I didn't want to be put in a situation where I would be disliked – more below on that). I did look through the Revelife archives and found at a post about Calvinism on Revelife from February 2009. Lo and behold, the exact same thing was happening. I don't like this. It makes me sad and it makes me uncomfortable. If you are a child of God, I think this disunity should make you sad and uncomfortable. Though some of the discussion has been commendable, some has not. We're to be eager to endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; it is clear some of our discussion does not fulfill that Biblical mandate.
My brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, so long as we can profess we have been born again by God's Spirit, by grace through faith, that we not trusting in our own works to save us, but Christ's cross and Christ's blood alone, then, though we may not all be on the same theological page, we can say all our names are all written in the Lamb's book of life. As Paul tells us in Ephesians 4 (emphasis, mine)
4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.I will say I do have some very definite and serious differences with Arminians about the operation of God in salvation, but I will agree to disagree about those things (and quite strongly, I will add). So long as we are all upholding the basic tenets of the faith, we are all one in Christ. By His grace at work in us, I pray all of us might treat one another as joint-heirs with Jesus and love one another as He has loved us. (Yes, indeed, this is impossible with us, but possible with God!)
Here's something John Wesley wrote ("The Works of John Wesley").
To say, "This man is an Arminian," has the same effect on many hearers, as to say, "This is a mad dog." It puts them into a fright at once: They run away from him with all speed and diligence; and will hardly stop, unless it be to throw a stone at the dreadful and mischievous animal....[please reread that now & substitute in Calvinist for Arminian...]One word more: Is it not the duty of every Arminian Preacher, First, never, in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach; seeing it is neither better nor worse than calling names? -- a practice no more consistent with good sense or good manners, than it is with Christianity. Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly of it? And is it not equally the duty of every Calvinist Preacher, First, never in public or in private, in preaching or in conversation, to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach? Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly thereof; and that the more earnestly and diligently, if they have been accustomed so to do? perhaps encouraged therein by his own example!(I'm not really sure how well Wesley put this into practice, but I think all of us ought to prayerfully consider his words.)
We are commanded to bear fruits worthy of repentance. One of the fruits of our faith, one of the tests of our faith, is that we love one another. As we grow in our love and affection for Christ, ought we not be growing in love and affection for His brothers and sisters (in spite of our differences)? I would ask you to allow God to help you examine the comments you have made and the thoughts you have had toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, as I do the same...
Jesus also told us that the world would know we are His disciples by our love for one another. We can discuss and debate doctrine and argue doctrine until we are blue in the face, we may make some very good points, but I'll ask the question: What is the world looking at more? The points we make or the manner in which we make our points?
Part of the beauty of the Body of Christ is that though there is unity, there is a lot of diversity. I think God's glory shines brightest in us when we can disagree with our brothers and sisters in Christ in love. That's a supernatural thing, something none of us can work up in our own power, out of our own willpower...
Know that as I write these things to you, I am writing them to myself as well. There's a 2 x 4 in my eye...I hope God will open all our eyes to see the planks in our own eyes, brothers and sisters, so we might address them appropriately.
When the Body of Christ is ripped apart, I feel ripped apart, so that's one reason why I've felt I was being ripped up on the inside... I regret to say this, but the reality is this: wherever there are Christians, there will be division (well, until we reach heaven)...so my leaving here won't make the division go away and my not writing about Calvinism won't make the division go away. The division will only go away when we're gathered round the throne. Honestly, if you're not grieved over some of the exchanges that take place here between Christians, I pray that God would help you to have His eyes to see the situation as He does. ("Is My Son divided? What are My children doing anyhow bickering and fighting with each other like this?" "I sent my Son to unite them into one man...")
I may not agree with you on Arminius.
You may not agree with me on Calvin.
But are we not all agreed on Christ?
By the grace of God, may I be able to look beyond your Arminius and see Christ in you.
By the grace of God, may you be able to look beyond my Calvin and see Christ in you.
By the grace of God, may we receive one another and love one another with the love He set on us.
Another reason why I was being ripped up on the inside is because I was trying to please everyone. I have come to see that's impossible. That seems obvious to me now, but it really wasn't so obvious at first.
In my almost three years of blogging here, I've come away pretty unscathed, but now I'm in the fray. I had actually mentioned to someone this place was toxic, and I was tempted to run away from it. But the thing is: the problem isn't with this place, it's with my sinful, selfish, immature heart. As I already said, no matter where we go in the Body of Christ, we'll get the same thing: divisions and disagreements. I don't like conflict, but if you remain in a place long enough, you end up with some sort of conflict to some extent. So I'm here now in the middle of conflict and have been tempted to cut and run, except I believe God wants me to remain here. Running doesn't get to the root of the problem. More stretching...More ripping...The root of the problem is with my own heart and how I react to conflict.
More specifically, I will tell you this: I'm Karen and I am a people-pleaser. There. It is now out in the open. I like to be liked. I dislike being disliked. I've alluded to this in other posts, but I don't think I've ever been quite so blunt about it before. I like the praise of men. I find myself seeking men's approval and coveting it. I know that is totally against what it means to live in the Kingdom of God. Such an attitude is disgusting, vile and sinful. It's not at all Christ-like. It's all about self and nothing about Christ. I ought only be seeking to bring God praise and all about His praise and His glory. I am so far from being selfless. I'm too often focused on my own little kingdom and not my King and His Kingdom. On the other side of that is that I don't like insults. And I often take things personally (even when they're not directly addressed at me). My skin is thin. I confess these things to you and ask your prayers for me...
Since there are both Calvinists and Arminians in the Church, we're never going to see eye to eye on everything, so that means I won't be able to please everyone.
I'm over 50 years old. God has really been pushing me lately. It's time for me to stop acting like a baby and grow up into Christ and embrace the sonship of my heavenly Father. This is something He's been particularly been impressing on me in the past several months. (I wrote about it here.)
Though I know and understand God's love more today than ever, I can see how very little I really know or understand His love. How sad! I've been saved for over 27 years. No, not only sad, pathetic. Of course this is not due to any deficiency on God's part. If I truly understood and embraced my Father's love and was totally secure and resting in His love, I would not seek to please people but please Him. I would rest secure in His affirmation and embrace for me in Jesus. I'm weak. Very weak. I continue to be bound up by fear. Fear of failure. Fear of men. Fear of being disliked. Fear of being disapproved. Fear of rejection. etc., etc. Whenever I let my fears overwhelm me, I shrink back in disobedience to the Lord's will for me. Whenever I let my fear overwhelm me, I can't walk in faith. How much do I really know the Father's love if I continue to be bound up in fear? Not very.
When I began blogging I chose my screen name naphtali_deer because God had impressed upon me Genesis 49:21. (I wrote about it in my very first blog post.)
The blessing to Naphtali popped out at me: "Naphtali is a deer let loose; he uses beautiful words" (NKJV, Genesis 49:21). In the months prior to that time I could see God beginning to loosen me from many things that were keeping me from worshipping and serving Him as He desired (and that, of course, is His continuing work in me). The phrase "he uses beautiful words" hit me since so often I have used my tongue in ways to harm others rather than to encourage and edify them, and it is God's desire for our words to honor and glorify Him (see James 3:10). My prayer is that this blog glorifies Him and encourages fellow believers in the Body of Christ.When I continue to be captivated by fear, I can't be captivated by the love of God and I can't enjoy the birthright Jesus died to bequeath to me. Like the deer let loose, the Lord has unloosened me and set me free from the power of sin, self and Satan to be a slave to Him. As I've been going through this struggle, this stretching, this ripping, this discipline, I remembered that not long ago I had prayed that I would truly understand and be able to live out Paul's words in Galatians 2:20:
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.I find I pray prayers like that and sometimes forget, but God never forgets. He takes that little desire and begins to work...(Be careful what we ask for, right.
)
Yes, I was distraught about the Revelife flap (and still am to some extent), but now I'm seeing in addition to God bringing good out of it for us as a community, He wants to bring good out of it for my own soul. Romans 8:28 once again, my friends. Isn't God wonderful? He is continuing His work of conforming us into His Son's image. Painful but profitable.
Unless I die to self, I cannot truly live. I'll continue to live to my own flesh, my own desires – and that is no true life. I can't enter Christ's rest so long as I continue to be yoked to other people's expectations. I can't have Christ's joy if my joy is dependent on what other people think of me. That's why I've been conflicted. The life of Christ dwells in my soul. Because the very power that raised Jesus from the dead I can reckon myself dead to sin, dead to self, and alive to Christ. When God tells me to offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice, He gives me the power to do so. I'm no longer married to sin or self but to Him, so any so everything that revolves around self – all the self-seeking, self-protection, self-absorption, self-consciousness, self-aggrandizement, etc.– all of that ought to be decreasing as He increases. These are some of the glorious possibilities I've written about previously here (and more recently here and here). It discouraged me as I went back at looked at a post I did at the beginning of this year in which I wrote about my bondage to self...How little I've progressed since then, but now the Spirit is turning up the fire to purify me.
Here's what I wrote on January 3, 2009:
What do I need to count as loss for the sake of Christ, for the sake of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord?What do I need to count as loss so I might press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus?
What do I need to count as loss so I might press into the Kingdom of God?
What hinders me from running as I ought?
What do I keep holding onto that keeps me from taking hold of that for which Christ has taken hold of me?
Selfpride
self-seeking
a desire for attention
a desire to be liked
a desire for recognition
a desire for position
self-consciousness
a desire for safety
a desire for security
a desire for comfortSelf
Karen, do you love Me more than these?
Karen, do you love Me?Karen, do you love Me?
Karen, have you forgotten Me, your first love?
Little child, are you keeping yourself from idols?
Karen, do you love Me more than yourself?
As Christians the promised land is ours today; yet so many of us, myself included, continue to live as slaves to sin and self. We continue wandering around in the wilderness, we continue to be ruled by self rather than letting Christ reign. God has not given us a spirit of fear but of power, love and a sound mind. We're to serve the world, yes, but never to make the world our master for Christ alone is our Master. My eye is to be single for him. He is my first Love. If I continue to make the world and its opinion of me my first love, I'm in very big trouble. Anytime I try to straddle the fence, anytime I'm trying to serve two masters, I can't be happy. That was another part of the ripping inside. God is saying to me: Are you choosing to please Me or to please the world?
Jesus always sought to do the will of His Father and always did what pleased Him. I must do the same. Yes, I'm called to serve and love others, but serving others and loving others may not always mean pleasing them (HT: Lonnie). I'm trusting the Lord will help me to know Him and His love more and more. I'm trusting the Father's embrace will be more than enough for me, no matter what others might say about me or think about me. My God will never reject me or forsake me. As I become rooted more deeply in His love I will be able to run and not grow weary and walk and not faint. Ephesians 3:16-19 is my continuing prayer, O, that I might know Christ's love for me more and more! Praise God that He can do in me, and in all of us, exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or imagine!
So where does this leave me in regard to blogging?
In the past several days it had come to the point where I realized I couldn't keep walking on eggshells. It was tearing me apart on the inside.
For a short time, I actually contemplated and prayed about whether I could teach from more of a middle-ground theology, so I might be approved of men and might not upset my Arminian friends. I quickly came to see that would not only be self-seeking, an attempt to protect myself, but it also would be walking in disobedience to God's will for me. To write that way would be compromising my basic belief that God is most glorified as I write and teach through the framework of Calvinism. Such a compromise would be disingenuous and toxic to my soul. There might be more outward peace, there might be less conflict on the outside, but there would be no inner peace, I would continue to be ripped up on the inside.
I can't ever compromise in what I believe God is leading me to do, no matter how uncomfortable or difficult it might be for me, no matter what other people may think of me. So, as a servant of Christ first, and as your servant second, I'm going for serving God and not myself. I'm going to continue to write as I have since I am seeking to glorify God first and foremost...I am trusting God's love and God's grace will be sufficient for me and His power will guard and uphold me as I walk in the works He's ordained for me. He is my loving heavenly Father. Will my Father who gave me His Son Jesus Christ not freely give me all things I need? I need never fear His will for me. I'm not saying that will will always be easy...As I said, He is pushing me now: "Are you going to fear men or fear Me? Are you seeking to please Me or please men?"
For me to no longer teach through a Calvinistic perspective would be at best telling me to fight with one hand tied behind my back, and at worst cutting off my arm or telling me to just turn off brain. It's the framework through which the whole Bible and God's glorious plan of redemption makes sense to me. That may not be your framework. So be it. I hope and pray you will agree to disagree with me in love. (If not – well, I must keep reminding myself I can't control what you think or say, but as God's Spirit works in me I can be self-controlled and can continue to look to my Father's steadfast love for me rather than seeking your love and approval. I must strive to continue to enter into Christ's rest that He purchased for me at Calvary: that I have been and am fully accepted in the Beloved – even if you choose not to accept me.) And by the grace of God, I hope and pray I will agree to disagree with you in love (again – impossible with me!). I intend to write as the Lord leads me. By His grace, I pray I would no longer walk on eggshells here (or anywhere), but to follow His lead with confidence and assurance and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. As I write I do and know I must be careful about what I write because I must be true to Him and follow Him wholeheartedly. I know I can't abuse or misuse the freedom Christ has given me...This is a stewardship He has given me. I receive it humbly. I have nothing I have received but from His nail pierced hands. I have nothing I have received but through the cross of Christ. My salvation comes from Him. My ministry comes from Him. My writing comes from Him. I must conduct myself in a way that reflects well on Him and brings Him honor and not reproach. You may not agree with my content, but I hope and pray He will guard me in my conduct so I might never reflect poorly on Christ or grieve His Holy Spirit by the manner in which I write or speak. I know I will not do that perfectly, but as His Holy Spirit works in me, it is my earnest desire to do so.
I hope and pray God will use my communications here to point souls to Christ (not Calvin): to build up the Body of Christ and to bring souls to salvation for His glory. I hope you have the same ambition. As Christians we have a wonderful opportunity here; there are many hurting and lost souls in the Xanga and Revelife community. May God give us eyes to see the fields white for harvest right here! I am trusting our Lord will equip us all to do His will and bless our efforts as we follow Him so one day all of us bring our sheaves with us and rejoice and be privileged to stand before Him and hear Him say, "Well done, good and faithful servant..."
I also believe God has some of us here for a purpose bigger than we can imagine, that of helping to usher a season of revival into His Church. Sometimes I think that's crazy, but throughout Church history we have seen that time and time again God does use ordinary people like us and ordinary places like this! Simon Peter? Who was he? Nazareth? What kind of place was that? Each one of us? Who are we? Xanga? Revelife? What kind of place is this? Call me crazy, call me a dreamer – and as much as the devil continues to taunt me, to try to steal my dreams and snuff out my joy – I still do believe something good, something very good can come out of Xanga and Revelife! Therefore I wholeheartedly welcome any and all of you, be you Arminian, Calvinist or any and all things in between, any of you who have seen that we as a Church are so very poor and needy, that our only hope is for our Lord to rend the heavens and come down and revive us again, to contact me, so we can band together and contend for the Gospel and the Kingdom of God as one man.
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, let us act like men, be strong.
Let all that we do be done in love.
I Corinthians 16:13-14, adaptedIn Christ's love, for His Kingdom and glory, seeking His face,
Karen
Edit (12.12.09) - You may wish to read these follow-up posts:- we are a wilderness and a desolation today (lack of love in the Church | Isaiah 64:10-11)
- How do we know if we're speaking the truth in love?
- "Lord, please send a brother or sister to help me." (The Good Samaritan parable redux)
- What kind of pony are you asking for for Christmas?
- How can we say we are unified when ... ?
Comments (33)
I am now relieved that I am both ignorant and simple minded. lol When you are well educated in your subject of choice--especially religion and politics--you will incur the wrath of some who disagree with you. I am also a people pleaser. It is a long story, but I became people pleasing, passive, and conflict avoiding at a very early age. I tried to turn from it at age 74, and made some improvement. It became clear during the Holiday, that I am just about where I was at age 74--now 76. So I got depressed Thanksgiving. lol
Tackling tough doctrinal issues publicly and being a people pleaser like me, is a very tough road to travel. I wish you the best, Karen. You know enough in my opinion to a seminary professor, and I am sure there are those who really value your teachings here in Revelife.
As you know, I am most into 'practical' Christian living. I just like reading the Bible, and underlying verses that touch my heart. Today, I wrote about 'Christ in You' in my Revelife blog. That phase touched me deeply many years ago and became like my Christian life philosophy. It is kindergarten compared to what you do here. I try to absorb some of your teachings, but I am not the brightest guy with a short attentions span.
I apologize for not posting much, but it is kind for this old guy to think of sometime relevant to write.
Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving, Karen.
blessings
FRANK
Karen, My comment, THANK YOU! We need to reread this as many times as it takes for it to change our divisive ways. Christ is All in All.
Thanks for your humility and love in sharing this
Norm
[We're all in the big tent together. We've all been adopted into the same family, God's family, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.]
Amen! I'm glad you're not leaving even though I strongly disagree with some of Calvinism.
[I'm a Christian who values unity in the Body of Christ.]
I appreciate that, but as you said, we all have our own convictions about what is correct doctrine and to expose error when we see it. Unfortunately we don't all agree and there are going to be debates and disunity. Paul had dissensions with both Peter and Barnabas and wasn't afraid to confront them on it. Xanga is a public forum for people to express their own views. Sure it would be nice if we were all lovey dovey all the time, but that's not reality. We don't always say or do the right things.
[I intend to write as the Lord leads me.]
That's good. And I will also comment as the Lord leads me to expose what I believe is false biblical teaching. I'm not perfect, so I'm not making any guarantees on how my comments will be. Praise God for his grace and mercy when we don't always do or say the right thing. Thank you for writing this post and expressing your desires. If you submit more Calvinist posts to Revelife, I hope you're prepared for more opposition and division. All we can do is trust God in all things. If it's God's will to convict either Calvinists or Arminians about their passion for debating what they believe is true, then it will happen. May the Lord bless you in your walk with him as you submit yourself to his perfect will.
I think lively discussion is all fine but when it devolves into name calling, vitriolic discussion and claiming that the person is a heretic, etc. then it's gone too far. There is a huge difference between passionately defending what you think is right and making it into something that is offensive and ugly. I would post my own articles about cessation of revelation sometime, but I'm sure that would go bad, (not from you but others out there) so I choose to be silent.
Hey Karen,
I too long for that day when we all come together in unity to bow before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Over my years of blogging I have been involved in a great host of "arguments". Some of them I was the winner (for lack of a better word) and in others I was dead wrong. However, when I look back at what happened with the last posts I think that nobody did a great job "discussing" and it was the Kingdom of our Lord that suffered that day. Taking what someone believes the bible states and calling it various names or applying the heretic title to views well within heterodoxy is a shame.
When ever a post comes along that deals with the issue of "free will" or any Reformed ideas, I go in to the comment section and it is there that I see people who are not Reformed offering opinions about what we believe and teach. What they say we hold to is so alien to what we actually do I just HAVE to chime in. I usually try to offer what we do hold to and tell them "im not trying to win you over but it's better to hate us for what we actually believe, not what we don't". It's at this point that some people begin to tell me "thats not what Calvinists believe". It's hard to be a Calvinist in the Christian world! I just listened to a sermon by William Lane Craig titled "Why Im not a Calvinist". Right out of the box he lays down a premise about what we hold to that is just plain wrong. So for the next hour I had to listen to him build his argument against a Calvinism that does not exist. It's amazing!
I am a big fan of a show called the White Horse Inn. In this show they have 4 men who are from 4 differing Reformed traditions. Over the 5 0r 6 years I have listened to them not one time have they ever insulted each other over their particular traditions teachings. I have tried to employ what I see as their "technique" in how they present how they see a specific doctrine just after one of the other men has presented how he sees it. In short, this show rocks! Very godly men. We all stand to learn alot from the leaders of our particular faith traditions. AND from each other. If only we would take the time to breath and relax before responding... Karen! Your a delight! Your posts are full of wonder and excitement! never pushing or slamming our views onto another, but rather they offer hope and joy in our great God above!
Grace and peace!
~Michael
Beautiful post. Even though I'm probably further removed from Reformed theology than the average Arminian (being a 95% convinced open theist), I definitely agree that attempting to teach from a middle ground is in some ways less faithful and in others less effective than teaching from your Reformed position. As with anything, I believe, there are good and bad ways to preach from a Reformed perspective, and I've always seen you work from it well. It's much more often, in fact, that I see Arminians hotly arguing with you and think, "Why would I want anyone to convert to loveless Arminianism?"
For my part, I hope that I've never come across as offensive or offended when our streams have crossed. If so, I definitely apologize, and I wish you joy and success in whatever form your ministry takes.
I'm not bothered by the Reformed position, as long as it's not shoved down my throat. Since you've never done this, at least not that I've ever seen, I have no issue with you. The fact that I differ with you in some minor areas doesn't mean we have any problems in the major areas.
I would have to say I disagree that we have to compromise anything when we stick to majors, and say little about the minors. We all agree on every central doctrine in the Scriptures. Our differences are not worth disunity. I've attended a Reformed Emerging church. The Bible is preached, but in 3 years no one has offered me a TULIP. It's as plain as the nose on my face that this church is Reformed, but it's only plain to me because I know what I'm looking for. It is a wonderful vibrant church, which reaches to the world around it, with the love of Christ. After 3 years I'm still not a Calvinist. I never will be a Calvinist, but it doesn't bother me that you or anyone else is.
We Christians have to learn to focus on what is important, and work toward unity. Unity requires that we all be submissive, and set aside some things in order to have the greater whole, which is the higher call of Christ; "A new command I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you." (BP paraphrase). This is the greatest area of our compromise, and it is to our shame. And that's not Calvinists or Arminians, that's everyone in the body.
I just noticed that I claimed the sermon titled "Why Im not a Calvinist" was dome by Willian Lane Craig. It was actually preached by Norm Geissler. It's still a pit of errors.
Sorry about that. I have been listening to both these days and got them confused.
@ANVRSADDAY - Frank, I think there is something to be said for that saying "Ignorance is bliss."
We are all born people pleasers. We can only become God pleasers as we come to see that God is ultimately the most wonderful person/being in the entire universe, the most glorious thing ever, or as Paul talked about in Phil. 3: that we might come to see the all-surpassing value of knowing Christ...all else is rubbish. What else ought we be living for? If I see Him as most valuable, others' opinions of me will not matter in comparison. (Utterly impossible apart from Him giving me a desire and love and passion for Him alone!)
Like you, I too am concerned about daily living. What we believe has such a bearing on how we live our lives. Though I do cover doctrine, I desire that it all eventually be worked out in day to day living, otherwise it's worthless. If you notice most of the NT letters, we see the foundation we have in Christ, who are in Christ, then we have the practical working out of doctrine. You can't live the Christian life w/ out Christ. Like you're writing about Colossians. Col. 1: Christ in us. Then you eventually get to where the rubber meets the road in Col. 3: how we live w/ one another in the church. If we don't understand the power we have in Christ, we won't ever realize the possibility that exists that we CAN love one another as Christ has loved us.
I don't generally do blogs about the nuts and bolts of Calvinism. First off, I know there are plenty of other people who can do that far better than I. You can find plenty of really good resources out there on that. Second, I know the name Calvinism has a lot of negative connotations. I consider the teachings Biblical and want people to open their Bibles and read and study for themselves.
As I write, I try to write things that affect us where we live and then that's where those doctrines come through. I don't generally label them as such, however. For example, earlier this year I wrote a couple blogs on Why we should preach the Gospel. The first, because bad men need good news, and the second, because dead men need life. They were both based on the doctrine of total depravity. Or as I post about the assurance and joy we can have in Christ, that's largely based on the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement and perseverance of the saints. I don't label them as such. I know that believers can differ on these things (as I said I wasn't a Calvinist until a couple years ago), but I truly think they are wonderful doctrines and believe them to be Scriptural, so that's why I teach and write as I do.
Frank, please don't forget that the truths of the Scripture are opened to us through the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 2); it's not only for spiritual elites or a special club to understand these things, but for all of us. The Bible was written to regular people like you and me. May He continue to bless you as you seek Him.
In Christ,
Karen
@quest4god@revelife - Norm, Thanks. May He give us grace to continue to see and remove the planks, and fill us up with Him so we might truly love one another as He has loved us, so we might bring Him the glory due His Name.
Karen
@musterion99 - Sure it would be nice if we were all lovey dovey all the time, but that's not reality. We don't always say or do the right things.
Oh, yes, it's certainly true we don't and won't always say or do the right things
, but I'm praying as we all continue to be filled with His Spirit and be in tune w/ His Spirit, we might do and say the right things more and more, and indeed we might be lovey dovey a bit more of the time. Impossible with us, possible with God. That's a real possibility for us as Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. I'm looking at the possibility that God wants to make reality in our lives.
It only recently occurred to me that your screen name means "mystery" in Greek. We can agree that we all see through a glass darkly but one day we will see Him face to face, and though we do know Him, we are both seeking to know Him more and more as His Spirit continues to lead and teach us. And we do know He will bless us as we keep our eyes fixed on Him and we continue to diligently seek Him.
May the Lord bless you in your walk with him as you submit yourself to his perfect will.
Thank you. I pray the same blessing over you as well.
Numbers 6:24-26.
Karen
@Happily_Married_Guy - I think lively discussion is all fine but when it devolves into name calling, vitriolic discussion and claiming that the person is a heretic, etc. then it's gone too far. There is a huge difference between passionately defending what you think is right and making it into something that is offensive and ugly.
Thank you, brother. I very much agree with your words here. I have been distressed over the same things. Differing doctrine on nonessential matters doesn't make someone a heretic...
I would post my own articles about cessation of revelation sometime, but I'm sure that would go bad, (not from you but others out there) so I choose to be silent.
I find that sad.
I've been in situations where people are paralyzed out of fear of being shredded and I think you are not alone in your attitude that regarding Revelife. I am continuing to pray God would increase our love for one another and be able to agree disagreeably with one another. The Body of Christ ought to be a welcoming place.
I am also praying God would help me to step out in faith when there is something I should be posting and then let the chips lay where they will and trust Him to take care of me through it. (Easier said than done, of course...)
Thanks so much for sharing your words here.
May Christ richly bless you,
Karen
@SirNickDon - Thanks so much.
By the grace of God, I strive to work from Reformed theology well, as you say. I've seen a lot of proud and stuck up Calvinists, and I know how easily I can fall prey to that (and have), so I really need to guard myself in that. The thing about blogging/writing here is that you do have that delay, you can think whether you will submit what you've written or not...as opposed to in person...
It's much more often, in fact, that I see Arminians hotly arguing with you and think, "Why would I want anyone to convert to loveless Arminianism?"
I've thought the same things about Calvinists...
I appreciate your apology, however I would say you have conducted yourself in love here on Xanga and I don't remember a case where you've come across as offensive to me.
May Christ bless you as you minister for Him,
Karen
@naphtali_deer -
[but I'm praying as we all continue to be filled with His Spirit and be in tune w/ His Spirit, we might do and say the right things more and more, and indeed we might be lovey dovey a bit more of the time.]
Sure, I agree with that, but you are filled with the Spirit and believe Calvinism is biblical and I'm filled with the Spirit and don't believe all of it's biblical.
[It only recently occurred to me that your screen name means "mystery" in Greek.]
Correct
[We can agree that we all see through a glass darkly but one day we will see Him face to face, and though we do know Him, we are both seeking to know Him more and more as His Spirit continues to lead and teach us.]
Amen!
@naphtali_deer -
[Differing doctrine on nonessential matters doesn't make someone a heretic...]
I agree with that also but the teaching can still be heretical. It doesn't mean the person is a heretic.
@MC_Shann -
I too long for that day when we all come together in unity to bow before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Amen, me too!
Over my years of blogging I have been involved in a great host of "arguments". Some of them I was the winner (for lack of a better word) and in others I was dead wrong. However, when I look back at what happened with the last posts I think that nobody did a great job "discussing" and it was the Kingdom of our Lord that suffered that day. Taking what someone believes the bible states and calling it various names or applying the heretic title to views well within heterodoxy is a shame.
(Think you meant views well within orthodoxy there?)
I think there's no "winner" when discussion deteriorates into a slugfest. I so appreciate your repentant and contrite heart in this and how you do strive to be Christ-like as you communicate. (See the comments I made to @Happily_Married_Guy above...)
As you said there are a lot of misconceptions out there about Calvinism. Yes, some people teach it wrongly, so it's understood wrongly or they have wrong ideas about it b/c the messengers have been offensive. Then as God equips us, we can try to reteach it in a humble way, so the way we write doesn't cause offense, though the doctrines still may.
Thanks, Michael, for your encouraging words. I've had doctrines pushed and shoved on me. There's a constant temptation to push and shove, but as we trust God to open eyes and hearts (we can't do that), we don't need to push and shove, but leave it in His hands.
(Thanks also for the correction on the sermon info.)
Grace and peace,
Karen
@Such_Were_You - Lonnie, thanks. Yes, I try not to shove, as I've alluded to in some of my previous comments, though the temptation is there, particularly when you get "cornered" in an argument, but that's no reason or excuse to shove.
I would have to say I disagree that we have to compromise anything when we stick to majors, and say little about the minors. We all agree on every central doctrine in the Scriptures.
I agree with you we do all agree on the central doctrines in Scripture.
I will disagree w/ you since I believe I would be compromising if I were not to teach through a Calvinistic viewpoint. I've explained a little bit more about that in my comment to @ANVRSADDAY how Calvinism affects my writing/teaching, so I won't repeat all that again here. As I said in the original post, I believe writing through a Calvinistic framework brings the most glory to God. I'm not attempting to lift up Calvin or Reformed theology but Christ, and believe Calvinism does that best, though I rarely mention Calvinism in most of my posts or specifically say, "Here's a "T" or a "U" or whatever." So we will agree to disagree on that.
(BTW: I never thought I'd be a Calvinist...
)
Blessings in Christ,
Karen
@naphtali_deer - Agree to disagree??? Well, okay, that's fine with me. You must do as you believe God would have you do. I learn more from people who don't agree with me. What can I learn from those who agree with me? I know what those who agree with me already think. When I take issue with, (read: "scream at") a person it's because they haven't spent time to invest in what they believe. You, @MC_Shann -, and many others have spent a great deal of time, money, and effort to educate yourselves. God's word is of great importance to you, and that is worthy of great respect and honor. We'll likely not agree on many things this side of eternity, but of what value is that when compared to eternity?
Lonnie
@Such_Were_You - Amen. Thanks much, Lonnie.
@musterion99 - In response to my comment: [Differing doctrine on nonessential matters doesn't make someone a heretic...], you wrote: I agree with that also but the teaching can still be heretical. It doesn't mean the person is a heretic.
It grieves me that you (and some other Arminian believers) continue to choose to insist on calling Calvinistic teaching heretical. (It also grieves me that some Calvinists choose to insist on calling Arminian doctrine heretical.) Though I do believe Arminian teaching is erroneous, I am purposefully not choosing to calling it heretical. I believe the word "heretical" carries far deeper and divisive connotations (e.g.- ex-communication, burning at the stake). In addition, when we use words such as "heretical" we're setting ourselves up as opponents from the get-go, we're putting on the gloves to fight, we're erecting walls immediately, rather than first remembering what we are united on.
It seems you are not bothered and troubled by the use of words such as "heretical" and "evil" in this context (discussion of Arminian vs. Calvinist beliefs), but I am, and I think many other Christians are as well, e.g.- see @Happily_Married_Guy's comment. Plus I believe our use of such words in a public forum as Revelife makes our Christian witness to unbelievers suspect.
Since Jesus calls both Arminians and Calvinists His co-heirs and since our Father calls us both His children, by His Spirit at work in me, I will choose to call you (and other Arminians) my sister (? - I think you are a woman, correct?) and His child. Both the Calvinist and Arminian have been born again by His Spirit, have we not? Both the Calvinist and the Arminian have been covered by His Christ's blood, have we not? Both the Calvinist and the Arminian have the same Father, do we not? It is true we do not agree on doctrine, but my desire is not to incite the disagreement further by using emotionally-charged words such as "heretical" and "evil." It is my hope you might reconsider your use of such words.
In Christ's love,
Karen
@naphtali_deer - </p I appreciate your feelings on that. I do feel that some of Calvinism leads to a logical conclusion that God would be evil if what it's teaching is true. I will consider refraining from using those words but as I said earlier, just as you will write as the Lord leads you, I will also comment as the Lord leads me even if that includes harsh language. And if I'm wrong, then God will convict me. The Apostle Paul said that was rude in speech. Not only him, but Jesus also. Jesus called people serpents and vipers. Yes, I realize that we're not to go around calling people serpents just because Jesus did. Pray for me as I pray for you.
@musterion99 -
I do appreciate a lot of things about your comments, they show passion, zeal, and a desire for God's glory. Also it's cool that you're open to fighting or holding back impulses if/when need be.
A verse I have found helpful in this regard is 2 Timothy 2:24-26: "And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
So here as we notice in the end of the verse, these people were actually taken captive by the devil to do his will... and even then Paul advocated being gentle. This one was a big wake up call for me some years ago.
@Happily_Married_Guy -
Yes, that's a very good scripture but remember as I stated above, there are times when Paul was rude in speech and even strongly confronted Peter. But yes, I know where you and Karen are coming from. Thanks
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that those verses are used in conjunction with dealing with the Pharisees, who were actively and intentionally opposing Christ... I wouldn't want to use that as the guide by which I converse about divergent non essential theology... I did used to think of it that way however, and remember people often saying about how Jesus and Paul spoke to the pharisees (I'm remembering that Paul said they should go the whole way and lop their thingy off lol) when discussing how they would talk to other Christians. I now believe that we were way off the mark. Now the rebuke against Peter, this is a bit different and actually if I act in a way that is wrong I also would want an honest, merciful, yet blunt rebuke.
@Happily_Married_Guy - </p[Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that those verses are used in conjunction with dealing with the Pharisees, who were actively and intentionally opposing Christ...]
Yes, you're right in that reference from Jesus but not in the case of Paul. When he said he was rude in speech, he was speaking to other Christians.
(you forgot to use the reply on your last comment)
@musterion99 -
Hmm, yes those were... Judaizers (spelling) I believe? Note though that at that time he was not speaking directly to them, but venting his frustration to the person he was writing the letter to. I'm a bit rusty on what the Judaizers believed, but I do know that he considered it dangerous and leading Christians into a program of works righteousness, and he was very frustrated with them. However I can't recall any reference where he was rude or insulting to their face, if you recall any let me know I just can't seem to remember any though.
@Happily_Married_Guy -
II Cor. 11:6 - It doesn't say anything about Judaisers, but is in reference to his letters. II Cor. 10:10 Paul said in Galatians 2:11 that he withstood Peter to his face because he was teaching dissimulation.(v. 13)
@musterion99 - I will also be praying for you as well as myself (and have been & will be continuing to pray for this community in general).
I think there is a question we all have to ask, whether we're Arminians or Calvinists. God allows/permits/ordains people to go to hell – why is that? He is Lord of the Universe. He is all powerful. God could certainly save everyone and yet He doesn't choose to do so.
From the Calvinist perspective: why doesn't God choose to soften the hearts of all men, so all men come to believe in Him?
And from the Arminian perspective, if Christ died for the sin of the world, why doesn't the whole world end up choosing to believe in Him?
No matter what your viewpoint, we still are left wondering: why do people end up in hell? It's a difficult concept (understatement), particularly as we see loved ones die apart from Christ. We know God definitely allows/permits/ordains evil and yet He does not sin as He does so. And we know that God is just and fair and He does all things for His glory. All I can say is that He is God and I am not. His thoughts and His ways are higher than ours.
@Happily_Married_Guy -God also hit me w/ that II Timothy passage a few years ago. The part that was impressed on me was that first portion about not quarreling and being kind and gentle. I find that a constant challenge, yet I know that is God's desire for me and He gives me the power to communicate in that way. I also love the portion about God granting repentance. When I remember that, then I can say what I need to and then leave the rest in God's hands. Our manipulating and scheming are never God's means of changing hearts. That's a lesson God has continued to teach me (but I've been slow to learn it
).
Regarding our speech, I think we can justify just about anything, but we need to look at the Word and ask the Spirit to search the thoughts and intents of our hearts and ask questions such as:
Why am I choosing to speak/write as I do?
Am I using this language to build up or to tear down?
Am I using this language to prove myself right or to restore my brother?
Am I doing this out of love and a sincere heart?
And so forth...
I'm actually getting ready to post a blog about these sorts of things soon...
Grace & peace be with you both. May we all continue to seek Him and may He grow our love for Him and for one another.
Karen
@naphtali_deer - </pAnd from the Arminian perspective, if Christ died for the sin of the world, why doesn't the whole world end up choosing to believe in Him?]
Because God has created us freewill. He doesn't force us to love him. Love CANNOT exist without freewill. If we are merely forced to love God against our will, that is not love. We would just be puppets.
[No matter what your viewpoint, we still are left wondering: why do people end up in hell?]
No I don't as I just explained.
[We know God definitely allows/permits/ordains evil and yet He does not sin as He does so.]
Again, he allows us the freewill to commit evil and at times he will sovereignly ordain evil as judgment in response to our choosing to do evil. He clearly allows the choice. James 1:13-14
Btw, I am neither fully Arminian or Calvinist. I believe there are both truth and error in both teachings.
@musterion99 - As you know, I disagree and see our unregenerate nature as dead to the things of God, the will bound, the mind hostile, the heart hard, that we are wholly incapable of loving God apart from His intervention. In His sovereign grace God gives us life (Eph. 2:1, 5), makes us new creations (II Cor. 5:17), gives us new hearts (Ezek. 36), puts His laws into our hearts & minds (Jer. 31; Heb. 8) and turns us (Jer. 31:18). It's not forced at all. We are given a new nature, a new will that now freely and extravagantly loves and adores Him, where before that our hearts and minds were hostile to Him, totally incapable of receiving Him. (I Cor. 2:14: The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.)
I didn't mean that I didn't understand it from either viewpoint (no, not that I can truly understand it, I'm not God), but only that we must be sad/perplexed/grieved that people are going to hell to be separated from God forever, like Jesus weeping over Jerusalem and His looking at the rich young ruler with sadness...
I think we can both agree that we ought to be in a continual state of thanksgiving and praise to God that we are saved by grace through faith when all we deserve is condemnation.
@naphtali_deer - </p As you know, I disagree and see our unregenerate nature as dead to the things of God, the will bound, the mind hostile, the heart hard, that we are wholly incapable of loving God apart from His intervention.]
As I said, I'm not fully Arminian or Calvinistic. So actually, for the most part, we agree on this. Unless God 'FIRST' draws us to himself, we would not choose to love him.
[but only that we must be sad/perplexed/grieved that people are going to hell to be separated from God forever, like Jesus weeping over Jerusalem and His looking at the rich young ruler with sadness...]
But why would you be sad if God doesn't love them enough to choose to save them? That doesn't make sense. You should be happy that God in his sovereignty is choosing to not save them.
[I think we can both agree that we ought to be in a continual state of thanksgiving and praise to God that we are saved by grace through faith when all we deserve is condemnation.]
Absolutely!
@musterion99 - [but only that we must be sad/perplexed/grieved that people are going to hell to be separated from God forever, like Jesus weeping over Jerusalem and His looking at the rich young ruler with sadness...]
But why would you be sad if God doesn't love them enough to choose to save them? That doesn't make sense. You should be happy that God in his sovereignty is choosing to not save them.
You are welcome to question me, to doubt me, to disbelieve me, to say I am inconsistent or a liar, you can say whatever you want to say about me. (Though I will confess I am quite sad/perplexed/grieved that as a fellow Christian you are maligning me by implying that I do not weep over the lost.)
However, here is the truth of the matter: I AM sad that there are people going to hell. If that does not "make sense" to you, then your logic has failed. Your logic does not determine, cannot explain or see into my heart. Romans 11:33-36.
@naphtali_deer - </p(Though I will confess I am quite sad/perplexed/grieved that as a fellow Christian you are maligning me by implying that I do not weep over the lost.)]
You have completely missed my point. Why would you weep when it's God's will to not save them? This is just another of the illogical inconsistencies of Calvinism that makes me just shake my head. If God in his wisdom, doesn't love these people and chooses to not save them, why would you not be in agreement with him and rejoice in his decision. It makes no sense to weep over it. In fact, the verse that you used about Jesus weeping over Jerusalem is proof to me that Calvinism isn't true for those very reasons. That verse only makes sense in a non Calvinist exegesis.
[However, here is the truth of the matter: I AM sad that there are people going to hell. If that does not "make sense" to you, then your logic has failed.]
No, the logic of Calvinism has utterly failed. If you can't comprehend that, oh well.